BloodBorne Commitment

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Ransom » Thu Apr 09, 2015 15:58

i had no interest in even playing legends of the fallen. for me, the secret ingredient that makes these games click is the vivid worlds they let us explore. lords of the fallen immediately lost me with its grimdark dudebro protagonist in its generic-seeming grimdark fantasy setting. DS2 proved to me that if these games aren't taking me anywhere interesting, the magic just isn't there. i think i wouldn't care about that game's mechanical problems if its world was worth getting lost in.

along those lines the number one way this franchise will lose me is if the next games are just bloodborne 2 and dark souls 3. i don't really want either. all the best moments of these games have come from the way they take you somewhere you haven't been before. i have no desire to retread old ground when i could be exploring somewhere strange and new, and bloodborne really drives home for me how much better served this series is by spiritual sequels than by direct ones.

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Thu Apr 09, 2015 16:19

I know how you feel about Lords of the Fallen Ransom, because I felt exactly the same way. But if you haven't played it, it's worth picking up. The manly dudebro stuff is mainly just part of the marketing aesthetic. The game itself I found to be pretty solid, although I haven't finished it yet.

I really hope they take their time with this series because it's clear that it produces better results when they do. But I also hope they try to mix up the format more, a lot more.

Because fuck, this game is great. And the main things that are bad about it are, like what Ransom said, the unnecessary vestiges from the other games.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by kob » Thu Apr 09, 2015 17:32

if each game can be like DeS -> DaS i'll be happy, even if the naming convention is the same. though it would be cool to have a Bloodborne type successor every time. cyberpunk plz

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Wed May 06, 2015 16:24

So I'm super late to the party but I'm almost done with the game. I didn't even realize it, I just beat the wet nurse (who was super cool) and the Hunter's dream went on fire and I stupidly didn't realize that the large field of flowers was a boss area. When he asked me if I wanted to wake up I refused because I thought that would be the end of the game and I hadn't even gone to castle cainhurst yet. That's apparently the trigger to fight him. He's hard as shit so luckily he beat me and I rushed to beat all the optional areas (besides the chalice dungeons, which I have very little interest in finishing).

So castle cainhurst was pretty neat, but Logarius was a pretty crappy boss. He reminded me a lot of a dark souls 2 kinda boss with his non stop attacks. I basically had to trade with him the entire way and was probably only able to beat him because I was overleveled.

Then I finished off upper cathedral ward and was amused by the celestial boss of that area. Then my friend told me you can break the window next to the lantern and do an optional fight, but I almost wish he hadn't since it leads to Ebrietas, who I think is a super stupid boss. I know she's "optional" but since there are only like 4 or 5 required bosses in the entire game, it kind of feels wrong to not fight them all. But her attacks have absurd hitboxes and the game essentially asks you to abuse i-frames to actually dodge any of them. Except my friend also informed me that you take critical damage if you get hit during a roll, so you're double fucked if you mess it up. You know, cuz a giant tentacle eldritch monstrosity with disjointed hitboxes telegraphs so well.

I've heard you guys say that she's a lot easier if you can stunlock her but I find that she rarely does that move where she drops her head and the cane can barely get in there in time. She's easily the worst boss of the game besides the cleric beast.

Since I'm basically at the end, I can sum up bloodborne by saying that I like it, but it's a mess. The nightmare area with the spiders and the wet nurse was honestly one of my favorite areas in any souls game ever, it was an excellent twist on the Tower of Latria. But moments like that are few and far between.

The game seems much more interested in killing you than doing anything all that interesting mechanically. And its strongest feature is its atmosphere, but its difficulty is so disjointed that it's actually immersion breaking! I can't focus on the ambience and the environmental story telling because the game is constantly throwing shit at you that you need a hair trigger to react to. And it's hard to enjoy the aesthetics of bosses when they're constantly rocking your balls even when they're just flopping around.

All around, I don't know how much I'm going to replay this game because it's so fucking punishing. Between the grinding and the very specific things you *need* to know but the game doesn't tell you, most of this game, particularly some of its bosses, are a chore. They're joyless and largely memorization based.

More so than any other souls game, this game is way too brutal in the beginning and then way too dependent on how much you leveled up later on. The only other game I got that feeling from was DS2, which says it all really.

I feel like this game needed another six months of proper balancing and tweaking, because it really suffers from a lot of clueless design. It has so many cool ways of making fights super intense but then *ruins* them by punishing you so hard for failing.

And I really hate feeling this way because parts of the game are so fucking cool. But it's dragged down by so many stupid choices and lazy difficulty spikes. I actually enjoyed the easy puzzle bosses the most like the host of the nightmare because I could actually focus on being engrossed in the environment. They were such a vacation from the BSB's and Ebrietas of the game.

Maybe I'll feel differently later but that's been, on average, how I feel about it.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Ransom » Wed May 06, 2015 18:09

Saladin wrote:I've heard you guys say that she's a lot easier if you can stunlock her but I find that she rarely does that move where she drops her head and the cane can barely get in there in time. She's easily the worst boss of the game besides the cleric beast.
stay close, get behind her if you can, throw on some bolt paper if you're not doing enough damage. you can pretty much fumble through ebrietas with the right strategy. you don't need to hit her in the face to stunlock her, either.

that's a bummer, though. it's actually my favourite of FROM's games at this point and i think the only area of the game i found to be a chore would be the nightmare of mensis, which i was underleveled for and mostly couldn't be bothered dealing with properly. i'm most of the way through a second playthrough and i think i like nearly every area in this game.

i agree with you though about the significance of levelling. the game just isn't very fun when you're underleveled. that kinda sucks.

also having played DS2 very recently let me assure you logarius is not like a DS2 boss. all his moves are super coherent and dodgeable without i-frame abuse once you figure them out—that fight is extremely hard solo (and trivial co-op) but i wouldn't call it unfair.

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Wed May 06, 2015 19:40

With a huge overhaul it would be my favorite. As it is, it's too punishing. It's a huge bummer that it's ps4 exclusive because it would really benefit from a good mod.

I still prefer Demon's Souls overall, even though the experience is comparatively milquetoast. It's much more evened out.

That being said, this game, when it isn't being full of shit, is unquestionably the best in the series.

I also feel like the "correct" way to play souls games does *not* apply here. You need to fucking read guides and you need to do co-op. It's not required but you're missing out on half the game otherwise. So many hugely important things are presented in such an obtuse manner, if they're presented at all.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by kob » Wed May 06, 2015 19:52

Logarius is really DS2-y, but I think what makes him fair as opposed to DS2 bosses is that dodging is more responsive in this game and healing is much quicker. in DS2, it can be difficult to get an estus off without high adaptability because bosses are incessantly in your grill. I loved Logarius even though he's a bastard

for Ebrietas the way I beat her was to bait attacks until she put her head down. I never got close unless I was attacking or baiting her. might be cheesy, but it worked for me. only thing I found bs was her aerial charge, but I didn't get that RNG enough to figure out a solution. for the ground charge you just need to side step twice immediately when she goes into animation. no i-frames required. definitely requires a quick reaction time. shame you disliked her though. I think that's one of the best fights in the series. so fun.

and bummer overall you don't like it as much. I certainly got my ass kicked in BB, but it always felt fair as opposed to DS2. that's why I'm OK with the difficulty (which isn't much higher than previous games in my experience). i loved practically every second of the game. some really dumb decisions, but in the grand scheme of things Bloodborne ranks higher than the previous titles - so much so I don't even think its close. I do wish it was more replayable though. its not a game I could play endlessly like DS1 because of the lack of character building. game feels very similar no matter what weapon or armor you wear.

edit: what do you mean by co-op? you mean insight?

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Wed May 06, 2015 20:48

I just mean that the previous souls games are balanced around the idea that they're played best your first time without a guide and without coop. I don't think that's true in bloodborne at all. Certain parts of the game are just silly to do by yourself, and there are so many things that you need to know that the game will not bother telling you.

Insight is actually kind of lame. It changes very little about the game to have it maxed out, except of course that frenzy fucking murders you if you do.

I didn't hate Logarius, I just found his constant wailing irritating. I have a begrudging respect for how intense that fight was, but overall I found it kind of stupid. He's no Fume Knight, that's for sure.

On a side note, I think to a hugely underrated extent, the length it takes to drink and subsequently recover health from estus is one of the primary reasons DS2 is butts. That and garbage iframes and slow rolling.

And I think Ebrietas is awesome! This part of the game is legitimately unnerving and her design is fantastic. That's why it's so annoying that the fight itself is garbage, because it pulls me out of the experience.

I think, in individual pieces, BB is my favorite. But holistically it's got serious baggage weighing down how awesome it is.

Like, you saying you're not that interested in replaying it is kinda telling in that sense. The absolute first thing I wanted to do after beating Demon's Souls was beat it again. Less so with DS1 but I was still hype as hell. DS2 is eh but with bloodborne, it's like you want to experience all of the awesome stuff again but *fuck* starting over.

All that grinding? Jesus. And if you wanted to make a magic character? How long does it even take to get your first offensive spell?

It's far too tedious and punishing. Which is weird because I still want to play the shit out of this game. That is, until I run out of blood vials on a boss and have to farm for more for the tenth time.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Gordon Frohman » Wed May 06, 2015 21:30

I'm glad someone else feels my pain about Ebrietas.

Bone Marrow Ash aimed at the head = dead Ebrietas.

Fuck that thing. IMO coolest boss design, followed by BSB, but such an annoying fight.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Wed May 06, 2015 21:45

I'm all out of bone marrow ash. Is there a good place it can be bought or farmed?
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Gordon Frohman » Wed May 06, 2015 22:22

Best thing to do, and trust me, I had to do it a lot, is farm Blood Echoes and buy Bolt Paper and as much BMA as you can.

Kin - the Great Ones - are weak to Bolt. Couple that with BMA (my Bloodtinge was at 17) and I was doing 565+ damage to her head.

Do damage to her head -> visceral her bitch fucking face. Rinse, repeat.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by kob » Wed May 06, 2015 23:19

i dunno man, i don't think Bloodborne is as hard as you make it out to be. that's a lame ass response i know, but i never once felt the way you did. i got mad and wanted to throw my controller many times, especially fighting against Logarius and Gehrman, but i never felt the difficulty detracted from the game. it's harder than the previous games most definitely, but not to its detriment and certainly not hard enough to warrant co-op. i'm a pretty average souls player and made it without ever feeling like you did.

i 100% agree though that it lacks direction (like i said when i summed up my thoughts). it's really dumb and it got frustrating having to pull up a guide or consult Gordon to get anywhere. i don't get why this was a thing.
That's why it's so annoying that the fight itself is garbage, because it pulls me out of the experience.
that's what i mean. i fucking loved that fight. she killed me 8 or 9 times before i got her down, but i legitimately had a blast fighting her. that's more than i can say with most souls bosses because i'm too busy getting mad.
Like, you saying you're not that interested in replaying it is kinda telling in that sense. The absolute first thing I wanted to do after beating Demon's Souls was beat it again. Less so with DS1 but I was still hype as hell. DS2 is eh but with bloodborne, it's like you want to experience all of the awesome stuff again but *fuck* starting over.
you're not wrong, but my issue with replaying the game so soon is that it seems to be focused on delivering a great singular experience and not a replayable one. there's nothing new on NG+ and all the weapons play mostly the same. it's not a problem with the difficulty or questionable design choices or whatever - it's just going to play very samey on my 2nd run and i usually like to switch things up. i usually go sword and board on a blind run, then slow 2 hander focused on all out damage and using my dodging skills to get by, then a magic run and then some goofy themed runs. that doesn't really exist in BB because your playstyle isn't going to change. i don't want to rip on the game for not being replayable because like ransom and many others, people are clearly going back for more. but for me i need some variety before going back to a game, or i need to wait a while for my initial experience to settle in. that's just how i play a lot of games. unless it's multiplayer or whatever, i usually wait a bit before revisiting the game.

also regarding blood vials. best way to farm em is to go to the lecture hall 2nd floor and clear it out all the students. you'll get about 15k souls per run to spend at the bath messengers and teleporting back and forth is quick due to the area's load times. it doesn't make the system any less shitty, but it's way easier than farming the vials themselves

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Thu May 07, 2015 01:44

I dunno, maybe I'm just getting burned out on the format. I have basically no patience for games that use memorization based tactics anymore. And I don't feel bloodborne telegraphs how you're supposed to play it very well. So I get really frustrated when I die the same way over and over again. Particularly when there's some tiny fucking thing you had no way of knowing that trivializes the whole thing in a game that openly punishes experimentation.

I don't even think I died to her as many times as you did yet. And I only died to Logarius twice, and I still think that was too many.

And I know about the lecture hall but I don't like taking a time out for ten minutes and losing my momentum just so the game can waste my time doing something there's no good reason I should have to do.

I see what you're saying about the game being tailored to one play through, and I'm totally cool with that, and I agree. But I don't feel like the game is tailored well to that design.

Maybe I'm just a scrub. But I never felt like I struggled this much with the other games (leaving out DS2). Or maybe I've been perpetually under leveled. I only just recently got to 30 vit and end.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by kob » Thu May 07, 2015 01:59

i still don't know what you mean by memorization tactics. i mean, i know what you're talking about in respect to other games (IWBTG, 1001 Spikes etc), but i don't see that element in Bloodborne at all - at least not any different from the previous games. you're always reading the telegraphs to find out what attack is coming up and reacting to it. if it's an overhand smash, you back out of range or dodge to the side. if it's an aoe charge up blast, you back off. you never learn any of that in any game until you've gone through the necessary trial and error learning stage (unless you get lucky and one shot it). to me it just sounds like you're burned out on the format because the enemy/boss tactics are the exact same. i don't recall any differences between this game, DaS2, DaS1 and DeS.

but hey seems like you're better than me. i died to Logarius ~20 times, Shadow of Yharnam ~20 times and Gehrman over 20. i finished the game at, i think, level 65 or so. i don't know if that's underleveled, but i never felt my stats were a hindrance at all. i did a mix of vit, end and str.

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Thu May 07, 2015 02:42

I might actually be over leveled then, I think I'm in the mid 70s. And my cane is +10 and has super strong gems in it.

Sounds like maybe I'm just getting sick of these games. Or maybe I'm just less patient in general with games these days.

I do feel like it's different though. I've yet to replay DS or DeS, but with the exception of like Manus and Artorias, I don't remember most of the bosses being like this.
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