BloodBorne Commitment

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kob
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by kob » Thu May 07, 2015 02:53

yeah you're way more powerful than me. i think i had maybe 2 mid tier physical damage gems and a +9 tonitrus when i beat the game.

i think both our levels are pretty normal for a blind run. bosses just have more health in general in this game.

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Ransom » Thu May 07, 2015 08:13

Saladin wrote:All that grinding? Jesus. And if you wanted to make a magic character? How long does it even take to get your first offensive spell?
??? i haven't needed to grind at all on my second playthrough. it's like any souls game in that having beaten everything before basically gives you superpowers. e.g. i remember i died a shitload to cleric beast and gascoigne my first time and was like THIS GAME IS RIDICULOUS UGH CAMERA WHAT ARE YOU DOING and this time it felt like i was sleepwalking through it. and while the vial system is still conceptually awful, once you're finally good at the game it's basically just not an issue. (which is half of the reason it's conceptually awful, but still).

all the reasons to grind evaporate once you've learned the game.

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Gordon Frohman » Thu May 07, 2015 13:47

So you guys feel that it's worse than the DS2 aspect of 'git gud' or no?

Tbh most of the bosses weren't that bad for me. From memory, the ones I had trouble with were (in order)

-Ebrietas (~15+ deaths)
-Rom (~8 deaths)
-Keeper of the Old Lords (~7 deaths)
-Pthumerian Descendant (~6 deaths

What about yall
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by kob » Thu May 07, 2015 13:59

bloodborne is hard but fair

ds2 is hard, unfair and stupid

so no

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Ransom » Thu May 07, 2015 15:15

yap

the hardest parts of bloodborne are less full of bullshit than some of the easiest parts of DS2

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Thu May 07, 2015 15:45

I can agree with that.

Bloodborne actually gives the player a lot of tools to deal with strong enemies. Bone powder, Molotov's, viscerals, etc.

DS2 actually took tools away from you. Shitty i-frames on rolling, brittle weapons, slow health regen, etc. No need to retread that ground.

In terms of "git gud," Bloodborne demands a lot from the player, but it's ultimately very rewarding to understand its mechanics. Although it's fucking garbage at explaining them.

DS2 is largely about memorization. This attack will leave an opening for 2 seconds that will allow me to hit the boss once and only once before returning to turtling behind my shield.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Ransom » Thu May 07, 2015 16:10

oi when are we doing that demon's souls run

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Thu May 07, 2015 16:49

Now, basically.

I might actually run through it three times, I have three character builds I want to try out. >_>

My friend also wanted to do a pure black ng+ run with me, because the game isn't hard enough apparently.

When I'm done, I might run through DS and DS2 as well.

In any case, start Demon's when you can and post updates when you feel like it. Or, alternatively, finish it completely and then post a full retrospective.

I'll make a new thread for it shortly.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Fri May 08, 2015 07:01

So I just went back and beat Ebrietas on my first try. Bolt paper helped a shit ton, as did a good start. Finished it off with bone marrow ash.

Not knowing what to do next I just decided I'd face down Gehrman. Beat him on my first try as well. He was tough but I played cautious, got in a few good viscerals and finished it off with some bone marrow ash and some regular shots.

I'm kind of baffled by the ending. Is it implying that hunters impose the dream on mortals in order to allow conduits of rebirth for the kin? If that's the case, why was Margot's wet nurse the source of the nightmare.

I dunno, I don't fucking get it. Game 1 completed though!

I'll think I'll replay it with a new character soon. But I have very little interest in NG+.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Ransom » Fri May 08, 2015 11:29

there are three endings. in the true ending gehrman is not the final boss.

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by kob » Fri May 08, 2015 11:54

yeah. the true ending is actually really fucking cool. i loved it.

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Ransom » Fri May 08, 2015 15:03

fwiw the implications of the first two endings are intentionally confusing. they're meant to create a feeling of witnessing grand events from an insufficient perspective. like you missed some crucial secret that would have bestowed great & terrible revelation instead of bewilderment.

bloodborne is a masterclass in lovecraft, i love it

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Fri May 08, 2015 16:25

Do you have to do chalice dungeons to get the "real" ending?

Anyway, pet theory time. It seems like the game implies that there's a dichotomy between beasts and kin. Humans seem to be derived from beasts, and beasts, while destructive, protect humans from the kin and their knowledge.

In the beginning of the game, when you're turned into a hunter, you "hallucinate" a beast made of blood approaching you and then being burned alive. Then the messengers, who we know are servants of the kin, claim you as their own.

I believe this is supposed to symbolize that hunters give up their humanity to become unknowing servants of kin worshippers.

The night itself is imposed on mortals by the church, who worship the kin in secret, so they can find conduits for the infinite rebirth cycle of kin. The prostitute who's unknowingly pregnant with a kin is the primary evidence for this, as she gives birth at the height of the night, and she's the only one who doesn't go insane at that point.

It seems humans turn into beasts to protect themselves from kin, which is why it is the villagers who call *you* a foul beast and all that.

This is the first souls game where you are clearly in the wrong. Hunting beasts is a tradition on Yharnam only because of the church after all, and we know who they really side with.

This is why Vicar Amelia deliberately becomes a beast, of course. And let's not forget where you start the game, in Iosefka's clinic. What do we find out about *that* place later on? And what they're really doing to all the people they "heal?"

The church seems to be composed of people that, having discovered the eldritch truth at Bergenworth, have decided that their destiny is apotheosis. They must reject their humanity and ascend to a higher plane of existence. All other humans exist as tools to this end.
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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Ransom » Fri May 08, 2015 18:52

chalice dungeons have no story consequence. there's some bits and pieces down there that are lore relevant but that's it.

interesting take on it! quite different from my reading. my thoughts:

while there's inarguably a conflict between beasts and kin, to me the dichotomy was between paths to ascension. the Old Blood the game constantly refers to is the source of the plague of beasts - the church's blood ministration, originally used to cure strange diseases, apparently leads to beasthood if old blood is transfused with human. the scholars at byrgenwerth sought to transcend the flesh by "lining the brain with eyes" to glimpse for themselves whatever lies beyond the veil, and were taught to "fear the Old Blood", but at some point somebody (indicated i think in the flashback from the skull in the cathedral) rejected those teachings and pursued greatness by experimenting with the old blood.

while byrgenwerth and especially the choir certainly communed with kin (the choir in particular seemed to pursue a third route to elder knowledge: not through metamorphosis, but by deciphering the secrets of Ebrietas), i never got the impression they were ever really aware of the cycle of rebirth. all the human agencies in the game are concerned with the same thing: the pursuit of forbidden knowledge and power. the results of every experiment on both sides are scattershot and monstrous, but they kept going until there was nothing left. they don't even seem to question what the kin want. it's not worship, it's obsession.

to me the game is a fable about ignorance and hubris that, in lovecraftian tradition, paints a grim picture of humanity's mistaken understanding of its place in the cosmic food chain. the scholars experiment on themselves, yharnam is experimented upon by the church - which is itself such an absurd knot of conflicting ideologies that the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing - and all are manipulated from the very beginning by the kin. humanity, in its quest for wondrous metamorphosis, is blind to its own apocalypse.

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Re: BloodBorne Commitment

Post by Saladin » Wed May 20, 2015 18:48

Yeah, after talking it over with my friend, your interpretation seems more reasonable. Although the nightmare of Mensis, the baby, the wet nurse, and the purpose of the Hunter's Dream are still a mystery to me.

I've been replaying through the game and I found this...
Ransom wrote:??? i haven't needed to grind at all on my second playthrough. it's like any souls game in that having beaten everything before basically gives you superpowers. e.g. i remember i died a shitload to cleric beast and gascoigne my first time and was like THIS GAME IS RIDICULOUS UGH CAMERA WHAT ARE YOU DOING and this time it felt like i was sleepwalking through it. and while the vial system is still conceptually awful, once you're finally good at the game it's basically just not an issue. (which is half of the reason it's conceptually awful, but still).

all the reasons to grind evaporate once you've learned the game.
...to be super true. I beat Cleric Beast on my first try. And it wasn't really even difficult.

Admittedly, I am doing a strength run and I've been abusing the Hunter's Axe, but still.

I also find coop trivializes much of the game, but is more enjoyable frequently. Particularly against bosses that like to overwhelm you.

I still found BSB monstrously difficult, albeit not as much as before.

So far, my only actual gripe with Bloodborne in terms of its place in the series is that its visuals, despite being technically quite impressive, are pretty samey and not that memorable. Sort of comes with the territory I suppose. But it reduces its atmospheric appeal compared to the high fantasy environments of the other games.

Although I'm not done with my Demon's Souls rerun(s) yet, I can say comfortably at this point that Bloodborne is the best in the series, warts and all.

Ironically though, I think that the first run of the game is the least enjoyable, and that the old recommendations for souls games don't apply. It's better to look things up when you're confused, and to coop if things get too tough.
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