Gamercast of Thrones

General discussion.
User avatar
Saladin
Spider Mastermind
Posts: 8372
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 22:39
Consoles: PS4 PS3 Wii Wii-U PC
Location: DANCE MASTAH!
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by Saladin » Mon Aug 07, 2017 07:35

Agreed. I still think the show is pretty bad at directing fights, blackwater Bay is still the standard in that respect, and it's not great either. But this was definitely entertaining.

The pacing in this one felt strange. It feels like, with the benefit of hindsight, they gained *a lot* of structure from the narrative of the books that their writers aren't able to recreate.
Quack wrote:ok but so now what do I do besides masturbate

User avatar
youdiedtooeasily
Baron of Hell
Posts: 4221
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 16:45
Consoles: PC, PS3
Location: Glendale, AZ
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by youdiedtooeasily » Mon Aug 07, 2017 08:37

I think the fight choreography was pretty well done initially, watch the fight between Ned and Jamie again, that was executed well. Then you have the sparring match between Brienne and Arya... oh lord. I think Blackwater Bay was the peak of the show tbh, Red Wedding was great, everything else, eh.

The pacing does feel a bit off, I agree, but they are FINALLY answering a lot of exposition being thrown around in earlier seasons which is the one thing I appreciate about s7 so far. Jamie and Cersei's actions in particular, they didn't need Tywin to be successful, although I still think Jamie turns on Cersei eventually and maybe even Tyrion leaving Dany to rejoin his brother. food for thought.

User avatar
kob
CyberDemon
Posts: 12771
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 14:40
Consoles: PS3 - PC
Location: get slam'd
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by kob » Mon Aug 07, 2017 23:17

i guess i need to watch hardhome and battle of the bastards again because i remember those being pretty good. realistic? not in the slightest, but at least directed well with solid choreography. every battle this season so far seems really disjointed and sloppy.

User avatar
Saladin
Spider Mastermind
Posts: 8372
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 22:39
Consoles: PS4 PS3 Wii Wii-U PC
Location: DANCE MASTAH!
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by Saladin » Tue Aug 08, 2017 01:35

I think after seeing Dragonfire, switching sides is out for Jamie. No matter how bad it gets, he'll remember that battle. It's just not the kind of thing you can ignore, it's too personal.

There's a heavy degree of entertaining spectacle in earlier fights, but they're fucking preposterous otherwise. They don't make much visual or logical sense. Heavy on emotion but pretty short on coherence. People just sort of die brutally and randomly. You get a sense of who's winning, vaguely, but not how or why. Even in blackwater Bay, you could be forgiven for thinking the wildfire didn't do anything. Because beyond the initial cg glamor shots, it doesn't appear to make any difference on the later action.

Most of it just that they don't have the budget or the sets or the extras to really do a crazy LotR style battle. So they have to focus in on individual stunts and kills with frantic cuts to hide the seams. The inevitable result of which is that everything feels exciting, but the grammar of the editing goes to shit, because no scene is contributing to any narrative.
Quack wrote:ok but so now what do I do besides masturbate

User avatar
youdiedtooeasily
Baron of Hell
Posts: 4221
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 16:45
Consoles: PC, PS3
Location: Glendale, AZ
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by youdiedtooeasily » Tue Aug 08, 2017 07:59

You do bring up a good point there about Jamie, I'm building a case stating he is the actual protagonist of the show now, but the work continues... I still consider Dany as an antagonist and Cersei technically did nothing wrong, but I know I'll get shit for that. Just let it marinate is all?

As for the remainder of your post, spot on man. That's a really smart observation that most modern film students would overlook even, I agree entirely. Was going to pop off with a separate post but you said it better. kudos.

I'm not arguing the cinematography from the last couple battles/episodes of season 6 KoB, the framing, lighting, camera movements were great. Not gonna deny that. It's ultimately the choreography that suffers. We get these amazing shots until the fighting starts, it's utter chaos when that happens. Quick edits of people being killed over and over without any significance of the military strategy involved or why one side is triumphing over another. That's why most of the deaths are these backstabbing ordeals instead of full fledged war, which is what the show isn't really about on a critical level. The plot armor argument has a lot to do with this though, like even in the Bastards fight, Jon did some really stupid shit that would have got him killed a dozen times but the impact was more emotional than accurate. It's comparable to shaky cam action and jump scares in horror if that makes any sense, just a cheap way to draw a response without any contextual resolution. Something this show has been guilty of many times now thanks to normies.

User avatar
Saladin
Spider Mastermind
Posts: 8372
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 22:39
Consoles: PS4 PS3 Wii Wii-U PC
Location: DANCE MASTAH!
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by Saladin » Tue Aug 08, 2017 17:05

My sense of the conflict, as far as I understand how Martin wanted to write this story, is that the earlier parts establish what kind of characters we're dealing with, but it's left to you to decide who you root for. Nobody is really the protagonist, with the possible exception of Jon Snow. Everybody is just sort of a different kind of ugly, a different manifestation of medieval orders. It's about power, and how it changes people.

Dany started out young, idealistic and naive. She just wanted to do good in the world, horrified by what she saw. But in the end, her change came at a price, and it hardened her. You can't fix the world overnight unless you plan to kill everyone who disagrees, and that's sort of what she's had to do. She built an empire, not a kingdom, and empires stomp away the old to build their order. Defiance and dissent are crushed, because she can't and won't defer to any existing power structure. That's what happens when you rule with absolute power.

Cersei is just the Lannister ideal embodied, a classic English monarch. They can't control everything, so they use manipulation and murder to keep a lid on things. Everything is about expedience, short term goals only.

Think about how she found herself cornered, so she used the religious idiots to get back control. Then, they grew out of control, so she had to kill all of them, pissing off all her allies in the process, who she then had to kill to get their money to pay back the bank, because they were irresponsible with their finances to deal with some other problem they created earlier on with their stupidity, etc etc etc. All these examples are pulled almost right out of history. These kinds of kingdoms just went from crisis to crisis, with alliances constantly shifting on a whim to deal with the next pointless plot.

She ended up on top, but much like Little Finger, she just wanted to be the ruler of a pile of ashes. She's a survivor, and she always gets her revenge, but it always costs her everything.

And then the North is just a symbol of how the regular people get screwed. They might fight for their independence, to make their own way, but ultimately, the world will screw them too. Their ideals are too frail, they can't stand up to the power of the South, even though they're all stronger individually. They get overwhelmed, and no one cares about them.

And what better metaphor is there for all the troubles of the modern world than Jon Snow walking into a feudal war for the throne and asking a totalitarian empress to please care about this looming threat that's going to destroy the world? One that the Kings of the South laughed at and ignored and didn't even believe existed? Gee, I wonder what that's a reference to?

It's all supposed to feel hopeless and tragic. It would have been better if the Mad King had just resigned, or the war never happened, or that Ned never challenged Cersei, or that the North never rebelled, or that the South hadn't tried to murder them and Dany, or that the slavers had just transitioned peacefully, etc etc etc. It's just one tragedy after another, all caused by one thing, no one wants to give up power.

In that sense, I really don't think there is a protagonist. Rather, the only protagonist seems to be that ideal held by The Spider, loyalty to Westeros itself. Put the best ruler possible on the throne, so we can get this shit behind us.

As for the action stuff, I really don't think it has anything to do with "normies." I honestly just think it's not a talent of theirs, and that they don't have the budget or manpower to pull off a vision for a really crazy medieval battle.

It's like how the red keep is basically just three or four separate sets and some CG for the establishing shots? That works great for palace intrigue and drama, but how do you set up all the logic for a fight with such limited resources like that?

I imagine films like Gladiator, with, what, hundreds of extras? All those huge lines of soldiers and Roman forts and all that crap? Think about the money and talent that took. Or like Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith in LotR. They had to build both a *massive* miniature model set and a bunch of real, to-scale, sets to accommodate the several minutes of expensive, realistic CGI, and then the hundreds of armored, trained, choreographed extras to fight this battle that's pretty well laid out in the book.

Now imagine you have a tenth of the budget, you can only show like one piece of a castle or wall at a time, you have like 200 extras total, none of these fights are well described in the book, nor is their specific medieval strategy, and your crew is mainly TV people, who are super good at drama and intrigue, but are totally out of their depth when depicting large, complex fights, without the correct resources to boot.

What do you do in a situation like that? You focus on the human elements. The pain, the suffering, the skill, the terror, the spectacle, etc.

You show real medieval stuff, like sieges and shield walls and cavalry charges etc., but only individually, and always in service to human drama.

Remember, that's what the audience of this show is really interested in. The brutality and the intrigue and the drama. While a big, technical battle would be ideal, it's just not in the cards.

As a result of that, the most compelling battles in the show are the ones that follow the least familiar material, like the attack on the wall or the massive battle with the zombies at the wildling port. The show is just going to be better at that than it ever will be showing two big armies running at each other. Because it's much harder to fake that than something that's already clearly fake anyway.
Quack wrote:ok but so now what do I do besides masturbate

User avatar
kob
CyberDemon
Posts: 12771
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 14:40
Consoles: PS3 - PC
Location: get slam'd
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by kob » Wed Aug 09, 2017 01:21

honestly I don't even mind them showing not medieval strategy. I haven't read the books, but in just about every fantasy book I've read battles are described from an overview perspective with small mentions of basic formations and strategies (e.g. flanking, wedges and so forth), or they follow character(s) throughout the battle. and this is usually for good reason because actual military tactics are really fucking difficult to process as a reader, especially when fantasy is all about huge battle sequences. there's just too much spectacle going on for it to ever be easy to follow and how many readers are actually well-versed in military strategy? there were a few battles in Malazan Book of the Fallen that delved deeper into strategy or followed a commander as they controlled the battle and they were pretty difficult to follow. it was cool to see it done from a perspective that wasn't two sides running into each other with thorough descriptions of people being maimed and butchered, but they were damn confusing. since they usually aren't technical in books (and you say they weren't in this specific series) I think it's totally fine for a more simple, dramatic style on the big screen.

my problem is that the directing and choreography were pretty mediocre. they could absolutely make far better battle scenes even at their budget and it really just starts with action fundamentals. the way it was shot and directed in this last episode (and the whole season really) felt painfully close to a generic blockbuster action film. less quick cuts, more stable camerawork with longer takes on characters performing fight choreography would make the battle so much more engaging. throw in some wide shots of the battle so we still get the sense of scale and you have a good battle scene.

I don't care all that much for them to make it more realistic, but I do want better directed and choreographed battle scenes. and I know they can do it because I just watched a lot of Battle of the Bastards and they did it much better there. not perfect, but much better than what we've seen this season.

User avatar
Saladin
Spider Mastermind
Posts: 8372
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 22:39
Consoles: PS4 PS3 Wii Wii-U PC
Location: DANCE MASTAH!
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by Saladin » Wed Aug 09, 2017 06:08

Agreed. Despite what I said, I do think they could do a lot better. It's just clearly not what they're good at.

That being said, I do think the attack on the wall and the assault on the port by the walkers were legitimately great. Some of the fights near the three eyed Raven were good too. Battle of the Bastards was just too silly for me, although I do appreciate the visuals in that one.
Quack wrote:ok but so now what do I do besides masturbate

User avatar
Saladin
Spider Mastermind
Posts: 8372
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 22:39
Consoles: PS4 PS3 Wii Wii-U PC
Location: DANCE MASTAH!
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by Saladin » Wed Aug 16, 2017 04:20

I'm really starting to agree with you ydte about the "teleporting" thing.

The logistical structure of the story has evaporated. Things only happen now for thematic reasons, rather than physical ones.

It doesn't make the story less interesting or compelling, but it's gone from "cute plot holes" to "glaring and distracting inconsistencies."
Quack wrote:ok but so now what do I do besides masturbate

User avatar
youdiedtooeasily
Baron of Hell
Posts: 4221
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 16:45
Consoles: PC, PS3
Location: Glendale, AZ
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by youdiedtooeasily » Thu Aug 17, 2017 09:19

the Gendry reveal made me laugh, but hey, at least they didn't forget about him!

did you see the leak for episode 6? and you thought the plot armor/teleporting/and battle logic was bad before. LOL!

it's just sad really, I used to love this show so much, now I can barely watch it. I agree with your statement though, I mean I get they have time constraints, but good lord. then again, this is all a fan fiction at this point so they can make up the rules as they go and no one cares about the story anymore, they just want to see the giant action spectacles that it's been building up to. fair enough. but it just doesn't make any sense. just a cheap way to get a reaction from the audience.

User avatar
Saladin
Spider Mastermind
Posts: 8372
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 22:39
Consoles: PS4 PS3 Wii Wii-U PC
Location: DANCE MASTAH!
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by Saladin » Thu Aug 17, 2017 15:26

I stay away from leaks and spoilers, I don't even like to see trailers or screen caps. I either want it completely spoiled, or I want to know nothing. Those are the two best ways to watch something you haven't seen, imo.

There's been a noticeable dropoff in quality, to be sure. We now know, without a doubt, that the main reason the show was so solid was because the books are so solid.

I find it forgivable because the show isn't *bad* right now, it's still quite good, just much worse than it was before. Plus, like you said, it's fanfiction. Their writers don't have the time or the resources to do this justice. This is the last season, after all.
Quack wrote:ok but so now what do I do besides masturbate

User avatar
youdiedtooeasily
Baron of Hell
Posts: 4221
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 16:45
Consoles: PC, PS3
Location: Glendale, AZ
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by youdiedtooeasily » Mon Aug 21, 2017 08:41

I saw this shit a week ago.

How does that "forgivable" stamp hang now? considering there's only one episode left in the season and the teaser gave away way too much?

it's going to end with Jon and Dany riding dragons against Lich King boss from WoW. meh. I'm glad y'all still find a sense of enjoyment to it all, I do, I just don't care anymore. And that's really fucking hard to admit.

User avatar
youdiedtooeasily
Baron of Hell
Posts: 4221
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 16:45
Consoles: PC, PS3
Location: Glendale, AZ
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by youdiedtooeasily » Mon Aug 28, 2017 07:08

Cleganebowl confirmed? What a meh season for real.

User avatar
kob
CyberDemon
Posts: 12771
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 14:40
Consoles: PS3 - PC
Location: get slam'd
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by kob » Mon Aug 28, 2017 23:22

man they really had me sweating there with Jaime and Cersei at the end. whew man.

finale was actually pretty solid surprisingly.

User avatar
youdiedtooeasily
Baron of Hell
Posts: 4221
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 16:45
Consoles: PC, PS3
Location: Glendale, AZ
Contact:

Re: Gamercast of Thrones

Post by youdiedtooeasily » Tue Aug 29, 2017 08:15

so if it wasn't for the Nights King getting handed an undead dragon, how were they supposed to breach the wall? given the shows logic and not the books. idk, that's just sloppy to me. cool shot though. the undead giants were supposed to bring it down with the chains or? uh?

I read through the script leak of the first draft of season 8 and it looks like it'll get crazy, but nonsensically as usual since season 5. it just got way too rushed with no real focus. the "epic moments" don't have the same effect as they did in seasons 1-4. I still don't hate the show but I'm just disappointed. I only watch it now with the mindset of "just end already". rip the edge of my seat feeling I had when shit went down.

I think in the end only one house member from each bloodline will remain and Bran is going to die and become the next Nights King, thus the song of ice and fire will continue forever.

with that being said, if Cleganebowl happens, I'll literally lose my shit and celebrate since that is the only fan service this show deserves.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests